Forums: Rules Discussion: Are thrown weapons considered LOAD 0 ranged weapons ? (2024)

As the subject says..

I want to know if I could use hunted shot with 2 hatchets for example.

The Shuriken is AFAIK the only thrown weapon with Reload 0.

The only thing that might prohibit using one shuriken with Hunted Shot is the text that you make two attacks with the same ranged weapon - so you would need a Returning rune. But honestly... I see no reason to not also allow it with two separate shuriken.

Boumxyz wrote:

Well thrown weapons cannot be "loaded"... So I'm wondering if this is a legit omission or if you as a gm would allow the use of hunted show if the person has 2 throwing weapons in hand and use "feats" that mention "weapon is loaded" as long as you have that throwing weapons in hand ?

I'd say, depends the DM you are playing with.

In terms of balance, you will be using the same weapon for both melee and ranged attack ( you would be able not to swap with an enemy in melee, as well for hitting an enemy from range ).

It would be a "twin takedown"/"hunted shot" weapon ( not needing to drop or sheathe a weapon during combat would be in my opinion a huge advantage ).

Personally I'd love to see it ( a hunter which can use thrown weapons as ranged weapons ) but I can't tell how I'd balance it.

Boumxyz wrote:

As the subject says..

I want to know if I could use hunted shot with 2 hatchets for example.

All weapons with "-" on their descriptions are drawn like any other items. Only shurikens break this pattern because they have "Reload 0". I thought it would behave the same way, but they don't. Shurikens are a special case and I'm sure in the future there will be more things like that (Kunais come to mind) or classes that make them "Reload 0" (if there's one concept that could do that would be a Ninja Archetype).

I have decided to allow anyone with Quick Draw to treat Thrown weapons as Reload 0 for the purposes of requirements and feats.

I think that's the only balanced approach tbh.

Even if it had Reload 0, there's still the problem that it doesn't meet the Prerequisite of "Wielding a Ranged Weapon". Per the errata:

Quote:

Page 283: In the definition for the thrown weapon trait, change the first sentence to “You can throw this weapon as a ranged attack, and it is a ranged weapon when thrown.”

It only becomes a ranged weapon once it is thrown, which means you can never be wielding it as a Ranged Weapon in order to meet the Prerequisite.

Aratorin wrote:

Even if it had Reload 0, there's still the problem that it doesn't meet the Prerequisite of "Wielding a Ranged Weapon". Per the errata:

Quote:

Page 283: In the definition for the thrown weapon trait, change the first sentence to “You can throw this weapon as a ranged attack, and it is a ranged weapon when thrown.”

It only becomes a ranged weapon once it is thrown, which means you can never be wielding it as a Ranged Weapon in order to meet the Prerequisite.

That seems to be the opposite of the intent of the clarification, which looks like it’s intended to allow it to count as a ranged weapon when it needs to, where previously it could be argued it was never a ranged weapon.

Re: Quick Draw... that doesn’t work because of the way Quick Draw works in 2E. Quick Draw includes the attack. It’s its own action. It can’t be combined with a 2-action ability. Returning also eliminates the need to even draw the weapon if you’re starting it in your hand anyway.

Ferious Thune wrote:

Re: Quick Draw... that doesn’t work because of the way Quick Draw works in 2E. Quick Draw includes the attack. It’s its own action. It can’t be combined with a 2-action ability. Returning also eliminates the need to even draw the weapon if you’re starting it in your hand anyway.

Uh what?

It's a house rule, of course it works. Anyone with Quick Draw, at my tables, is allowed to treat the weapon as Reload 0.

everything else you stated doesn't matter at all, because I've already acknowledged it doesn't do that because it's a house rule...

Midnightoker wrote:

Ferious Thune wrote:

Re: Quick Draw... that doesn’t work because of the way Quick Draw works in 2E. Quick Draw includes the attack. It’s its own action. It can’t be combined with a 2-action ability. Returning also eliminates the need to even draw the weapon if you’re starting it in your hand anyway.

Uh what?

It's a house rule, of course it works. Anyone with Quick Draw, at my tables, is allowed to treat the weapon as Reload 0.

everything else you stated doesn't matter at all, because I've already acknowledged it doesn't do that because it's a house rule...

Sure, for a house rule do whatever. “House rule” didn’t appear in your earlier message, so I was assuming that was your interpretation of how the rule is supposed to work and just pointing out for clarity that it is not. Sorry for misreading your intent.

Ferious Thune wrote:

Aratorin wrote:

Even if it had Reload 0, there's still the problem that it doesn't meet the Prerequisite of "Wielding a Ranged Weapon". Per the errata:

Quote:

Page 283: In the definition for the thrown weapon trait, change the first sentence to “You can throw this weapon as a ranged attack, and it is a ranged weapon when thrown.”

It only becomes a ranged weapon once it is thrown, which means you can never be wielding it as a Ranged Weapon in order to meet the Prerequisite.

That seems to be the opposite of the intent of the clarification, which looks like it’s intended to allow it to count as a ranged weapon when it needs to, where previously it could be argued it was never a ranged weapon.

I can't speak to the intent, only to what the words say.

If that was the intent, there are dozens of better ways to say that.

It says it counts as a ranged weapon when you are throwing it... Are you throwing it? Then it counts as a ranged weapon, and you are wielding a ranged weapon when you throw it. So abilities that require wielding a ranged weapon work with it when you are throwing it. That seems completely consistent with both the words in the ability and the intent. (Which, yes, as Hammerjack points out also limits the use of something like the Thief Racket ability for dex to damage).

If, for example, something granted an AC bonus or something while you were wielding a ranged weapon, that might not apply. But an ability that involves making a ranged attack with a weapon that counts as a ranged weapon when you attack with it at range seems pretty clearly like it should work. The reload issue, however, also seems intentional, so would stop it in this instance anyway. But, for example, Hunter’s Aim should work fine.

Boumxyz wrote:

As the subject says..

I want to know if I could use hunted shot with 2 hatchets for example.

You can use two hatchets with Twin Takedown. The only problem in this is the steep cost of your build. You'll need to buy every rune two times in order to "keep up" with a melee character. Someone that is focusing on just attacking up-close will have the option of using the magical item Doubling Rings and will only need to upgrade a single weapon, but sadly the item specifically mentions that it doesn't work with Thrown Weapons, because when the weapon leaves your hands it loses the Doubling Rings benefit.

My suggestion is asking your GM to allow Doubling Rings to work for your character specifically, this way your progression is like everyone else's and you can enjoy your axe double-throw build.

Ferious Thune wrote:

It says it counts as a ranged weapon when you are throwing it... Are you throwing it? Then it counts as a ranged weapon, and you are wielding a ranged weapon when you throw it. So abilities that require wielding a ranged weapon work with it when you are throwing it. That seems completely consistent with both the words in the ability and the intent. (Which, yes, as Hammerjack points out also limits the use of something like the Thief Racket ability for dex to damage).

If, for example, something granted an AC bonus or something while you were wielding a ranged weapon, that might not apply. But an ability that involves making a ranged attack with a weapon that counts as a ranged weapon when you attack with it at range seems pretty clearly like it should work. The reload issue, however, also seems intentional, so would stop it in this instance anyway. But, for example, Hunter’s Aim should work fine.

Except that you have to be wielding the required Weapon before you are allowed to use this ability to throw it.

It's perfectly reasonable to interpret that this errata was actually about preventing you from trying to Throw Weapons with Abilities that require Melee Weapons, and in fact not at all aimed at facilitating the use of Abilities that Require Ranged Weapons.

Especially because that's what the words actually do.

Before this errata, it would have been legal to use Twin Takedown with a Thrown Weapon. The errata puts a stop to such nonsense, as Throwing them turns them into Ranged Weapons making them ineligible.

I think this is more about the awkward wording on the phrasing of “wielding a ranged weapon with reload 0” than it is the intent of when a thrown weapon counts as a ranged weapon. You’re parsing half of the sentence instead of the whole sentence. The prerequisite is not that you are wielding a ranged weapon. It’s wielding a ranged weapon with reload 0, which we both agree a thrown weapon is not.

If we both also agree that it works with an ability that says “ Make a ranged weapon Strike...” then we don’t actually disagree on whether or not any real ability works with it, and we’re just going to go in circles arguing pointless semantics.

Yes, it also prevents you from using melee weapon abilities with it when you throw it. That’s part of what clarifying it is treated as a ranged weapon does. It just seems like you’re saying that it doesn’t count as either a melee weapon or a ranged weapon, and that would be something I couldn’t agree with. The errata defined when it counts as a ranged weapon. That both limits it with regards to melee weapon abilities and clarifies when ranged weapon abilities can be used with it.

Ferious Thune wrote:

I think this is more about the awkward wording on the phrasing of “wielding a ranged weapon with reload 0” than it is the intent of when a thrown weapon counts as a ranged weapon. You’re parsing half of the sentence instead of the whole sentence. The prerequisite is not that you are wielding a ranged weapon. It’s wielding a ranged weapon with reload 0, which we both agree a thrown weapon is not.

If we both also agree that it works with an ability that says “ Make a ranged weapon Strike...” then we don’t actually disagree on whether or not any real ability works with it, and we’re just going to go in circles arguing pointless semantics.

Yes, it also prevents you from using melee weapon abilities with it when you throw it. That’s part of what clarifying it is treated as a ranged weapon does. It just seems like you’re saying that it doesn’t count as either a melee weapon or a ranged weapon, and that would be something I couldn’t agree with. The errata defined when it counts as a ranged weapon. That both limits it with regards to melee weapon abilities and clarifies when ranged weapon abilities can be used with it.

I agree with you that it doesn't work. However, I am also saying that even if it had Reload 0 it still wouldn't work.

A Melee Thrown Weapon does not become a Ranged Weapon until you Throw it. You cannot Throw it before starting the Hunted Shot Action, so it can never work for Hunted Shot.

If Javelin had Reload 0, it would work(assuming either a returning rune, or that multiple Javelins count as a single weapon due to having a Reload value.), as it is a Ranged Weapon at all times. A Trident is not.

They would both work with Hunter's Aim, as it has no prerequisites.

But the problem there is that then becomes the argument for thrown weapons working with Twin Takedown. Twin Takedown’s requirement is that you are wielding two melee weapons. If that depends on what they are considered before you throw them, then you meet the requirement. It then says make two strikes with the required weapons. Doesn’t say melee strike. They are the weapons that met the requirement. So it must work, right?

The much simpler reading is are you throwing the weapon as part of the ability? Then it’s a ranged weapon for the ability. Instead of trying to play gymnastics with when it needs to be what to satisfy the requirements.

Ferious Thune wrote:

But the problem there is that then becomes the argument for thrown weapons working with Twin Takedown. Twin Takedown’s requirement is that you are wielding two melee weapons. If that depends on what they are considered before you throw them, then you meet the requirement. It then says make two strikes with the required weapons. Doesn’t say melee strike. They are the weapons that met the requirement. So it must work, right?

The much simpler reading is are you throwing the weapon as part of the ability? Then it’s a ranged weapon for the ability. Instead of trying to play gymnastics with when it needs to be what to satisfy the requirements.

They clearly work with Twin-Takedown. You're wielding melee weapons that can be thrown, so you meet the requirements and the feat doesn't specify you need to be in melee. Regardless, it's not like this particular build will break the game or anything, in fact, it is an inherently weaker build that relies on runes and only come online after level 3.In the end, it's just another playstyle that Rangers support, it is a good thing.

Ferious Thune wrote:

But the problem there is that then becomes the argument for thrown weapons working with Twin Takedown. Twin Takedown’s requirement is that you are wielding two melee weapons. If that depends on what they are considered before you throw them, then you meet the requirement. It then says make two strikes with the required weapons. Doesn’t say melee strike. They are the weapons that met the requirement. So it must work, right?

The much simpler reading is are you throwing the weapon as part of the ability? Then it’s a ranged weapon for the ability. Instead of trying to play gymnastics with when it needs to be what to satisfy the requirements.

No. Because as soon as you throw the first one, it becomes a Ranged Weapon, thereby violating the Prerequisites and nullifying the entire Ability.

Aratorin wrote:

Ferious Thune wrote:

But the problem there is that then becomes the argument for thrown weapons working with Twin Takedown. Twin Takedown’s requirement is that you are wielding two melee weapons. If that depends on what they are considered before you throw them, then you meet the requirement. It then says make two strikes with the required weapons. Doesn’t say melee strike. They are the weapons that met the requirement. So it must work, right?

The much simpler reading is are you throwing the weapon as part of the ability? Then it’s a ranged weapon for the ability. Instead of trying to play gymnastics with when it needs to be what to satisfy the requirements.

No. Because as soon as you throw the first one, it becomes a Ranged Weapon, thereby violating the Prerequisites and nullifying the entire Ability.

And see the post directly above yours for someone making the counterargument.

There's really no need to try to read everything that closely, and doing so is only going to create more strange interactions and inconsistencies. It's a ranged weapon when you use it as a ranged weapon, it's a melee weapon any other time.

Ferious Thune wrote:

Aratorin wrote:

Ferious Thune wrote:

But the problem there is that then becomes the argument for thrown weapons working with Twin Takedown. Twin Takedown’s requirement is that you are wielding two melee weapons. If that depends on what they are considered before you throw them, then you meet the requirement. It then says make two strikes with the required weapons. Doesn’t say melee strike. They are the weapons that met the requirement. So it must work, right?

The much simpler reading is are you throwing the weapon as part of the ability? Then it’s a ranged weapon for the ability. Instead of trying to play gymnastics with when it needs to be what to satisfy the requirements.

No. Because as soon as you throw the first one, it becomes a Ranged Weapon, thereby violating the Prerequisites and nullifying the entire Ability.

And see the post directly above yours for someone making the counterargument.

There's really no need to try to read everything that closely, and doing so is only going to create more strange interactions and inconsistencies. It's a ranged weapon when you use it as a ranged weapon, it's a melee weapon any other time.

I disagree, but as it doesn't have Reload 0, the result is the same so I guess it doesn't matter at this time.

Aratorin wrote:

No. Because as soon as you throw the first one, it becomes a Ranged Weapon, thereby violating the Prerequisites and nullifying the entire Ability.

Having an activity nullify itself mid use would make thrown weapons of any kind basically incompatible with anything that requires you to wield any sort of weapon.

This is a really bad ruling to make.

Squiggit wrote:

Aratorin wrote:

No. Because as soon as you throw the first one, it becomes a Ranged Weapon, thereby violating the Prerequisites and nullifying the entire Ability.

Having an activity nullify itself mid use would make thrown weapons of any kind basically incompatible with anything that requires you to wield any sort of weapon.

This is a really bad ruling to make.

Only if you assume they're meant to be compatible with those abilities. I posit that they are not.

Trying to use Thrown Weapons for Hunted Shot has many issues (reload, ranged/melee, needing to use the same weapon for both strikes).

Trying to use Thrown Weapons with Twin Takedown has the problem of suddenly transforming a Melee ability into a Ranged ability.

I don't think either ability is meant to be used with Thrown Weapons.

I'd even say that the only reason Hunted Shot doesn't simply say it Requires a Bow is future proofing for other Bow-like Weapons, and that Shuriken is either a very special exception, or a mistake.

If people want to run it differently in home games, I don't think it would be game breaking, but I don't see a valid way to get there under the printed rules.

Thanks for your answers.

I didn't intend to use returning runes. All I wanted was to have a ranged opener and then close in.

Something like " hunt prey ", hunted shot 2 throwing knife, close in to make a better use of flurry, as I wanted to make my ranger somewhat more "tanky syle" without having to waste too many actions. Worst case I can throw only 1 knife and then close.